22 replies to this topic

[dolphin]

Hi, I spent a while writing my views on quadra progression. It integrates both Silverchris' and Smilingeyes' views into something I feel is easy to understand even if you don't agree with it.

Can I be honest and say that I would like you to give generally positive feedback on this? And not give a whole lot of your own theories, but instead appreciate mine? Constructive criticism would be okay. I don't consider myself much of a theory person but I did like what I came up with, even if the semantics aren't perfect. I'd like to contribute sometimes on a theoretical level, but I'm insecure that people will rip it apart. I have to confess that I don't understand Gilly's reply to me. I just don't understand what he said in English. I don't know if my brain stopped working or what. Here's what I wrote. Please say you like it!


Here are my thoughts on quadra progression..pulled from something I wrote a while back at 16 types..silverchris thought of an abyss, and I liked it. And smilingeyes defined the functions progressing, and these are also the concepts I'm using.

Terms

external = generally quantifiable and measurable
internal = generally unquantifiable and unmeasurable

static = generally at rest
dynamic = generally in motion

extroverted = object, generally apart from subject
introverted = subject, generally connected to subject

Smilingeyes terms

Spoiler

Descriptions of the states of quadras.

Te-Fi-Te
A state in which there is no potential. The maximum of peace and clarity. The halfway point between stress and calm, in which societies are created and contracts and duties agreed on.

Concrete Te & Fi
A state of confidence and comfort over having found one’s role and place.

Delta
A state of communication in which the statics wish to use Ne- to affect the dynamics who proceed to correct them with Te+. Personal freedom is measured and chartered this way.

Abstract Ne & Si
A state in which maximal freedom and personal choice is sought for so that certainty of independence and invulnerability is achieved.

Ne-Si-Ne
A state in which nothing is happening. The maximum of personal choice and free will. The halfway point between no potential and huge potential in which huge expectations arise and powerful dreams are created.

Concrete Ne & Si
A state of confidence and comfort over being one’s own master and being able to choose one’s own path and actions.

Alpha
A state of communication in which the dynamics wish to use Fe- to affect the statics who proceed to correct them with Ne+. Powerful and charismatic groups are formed this way.

Abstract Fe & Ti
A state in which maximal potential and extraordinary qualities are sought for so that certainty of eventual fulfilment of one’s plans and dreams is achieved.

Fe-Ti-Fe
A state in which everything is possible. The maximum of personal responsibility and fear. The halfway point between calm and stress, in which opposing forces gather, symbols are raised and lines are drawn.

Concrete Fe & Ti
A state of confidence and comfort over being able to achieve anything.

Beta
A state of communication in which the statics wish to use Se- to affect the dynamics who proceed to correct them with Fe+. Conflicts are settled and power is measured this way.

Abstract Se & Ni
A state in which maximal intensity of contact is sought for so that certainty of power might be achieved.

Se-Ni-Se
A state in which huge and important things happen. The maximum of interaction, intensity and challenge. The halfway point between huge potential and no potential, in which clarity of how things must fall into their place is achieved and final decisions are made.

Concrete Se & Ni
A state of confidence and comfort over the obstacles one has faced and personal capability.

Gamma
A state of communication in which the dynamics wish to use Te- to affect the statics who proceed to correct them with Se+. Plans for functional cooperation are laid this way.

Abstract Te & Fi
A state in which maximal obligations and bonds are sought for so that certainty of one’s role in life and society is achieved.

(Please don't get pedantic on my terms. )


So imagine an abyss. Or a huge hole in the ground with sloping sides. With ghosties and a bit of black electricity crackling away inside. Maybe Satan's disco too.


Aristocratic Quadras

Both the placement of Betas in the abyss and Deltas with their back to it signifies a sort of resignation within circumstances.

Democratic Quadras

The placement of Alpha as looking/climbing down into the abyss and Gamma looking/climbing up signifies a constant movement in relation to circumstances.

Progression

Alphas are looking into the abyss because "everyone wants to go to the big Beta party". Internally, they're pulled between Ne which defines internal qualities statically and Delta-ishly stable, and Beta Fe which is drawn towards internal experimentation and change. Alpha Ne/Si subtypes are going to peeking in from their birds eye view of the environment, Ti/Fe subtypes may be starting to actively move towards the abyss, exploring the possibilities of a gradual descent. Alpha looks into the chaos contained in the abyss but stays at enough of a distance to retain their mastery of their environment. This is a way they are "playful". They have the inclination towards mastery of the environment but the Ti/Fe preference seems to say "So what? Let's go try something different!"

Betas see themselves as completely trapped (placed) within external circumstances - both their external functions, Se and Ti, are static. Fe and Ni leads to an internality that's relatively in flux. Betas are in the middle of it all. Fe observes constantly appearing and shifting internal states, Ni questions the relevance of the existence of the abyss itself (it opposes longer strands of external environmental observation), Se sees each moment as distinct in its own right, and Ti finds ways to structure the whole mess into some kind of coherance. The interesting thing about being in the middle of the abyss is that you keep finding new ways to test the parameters, to discover the boundaries. I extrapolated smilingeyes material and say that Fe and Ti subtypes move downward into the abyss, and Se/Ni is being in the abyss. Beta Ti/Fe subtypes have pushed the boundaries of the exploration and then Ni/Se subtypes hit the middle point of the experiential perception, the deepest part of the hole.

Gammas are climbing/walking out of the abyss. If the Beta Se/Ni subtypes are all about the last few shovels/wildest disco/having sex with Satan, Gamma Se/Nis are the morning afters waking up and scrabbling at the walls up. In some ways, they're forever clawing the prison walls, a survivor with the instinct of the dance fading away to be replaced with a determination of movement upwards. For these people the experiential quality has peaked and they possess the ability to survive admirably in the abyss. But their mindset is shifted upward and slightly away. For Gamma Fi/Te subtypes, the clarity of rock bottom has faded slightly. They're overcome with memories/instincts of it now and again but for a large part concentrate on the trek uphill.

Deltas see themselves as completely in control within themselves - both their internal functions, Ne and Fi, are static. Si and Te observe their environments to be in motion. So the rise and fall of nations, etc, all pass by their eyes and is seen on a long timeline. The Fi/Te subtypes perpetually walk up the last edges of the abyss - they've put in the work of the travel, but can't dismiss the miles their feet have come to know as they order their environment with skill. Ne/Si subtype Deltas are the Ents of the Socion and they hold a certain sadness. Time's on a spindle for these people as they watch travelers disappear into the depths of the abyss, some coming out weary, some hopeful - and some never come out at all. So they turn their backs to the abyss, a primitive sort of wisdom as they staunchly hold their place while echoes of the revelry/despair come floating up from below.

Odds and Ends

Where are the functions? Where are the PoLRs? You can take the solidness order of the functions: Se Te Ti Si Ne Fe Fi Ni - Se is the rocks, form that is similar to rocks, people, things, external objects, etc. Te is the progression of the journey on a tangible level. Ti categorizes concepts of the subject into an external structure, into categories, this is moving down, what does it mean? Si is the view of the entire landscape, the person's place within the landscape anchored by Ne, internal concepts of people and concepts that stand the test of time against the entirety of the abyss. Fe is the journey from an internal view, states. Fi's structure doesn't let the constant movement of the external world disturb the subject as they climb upward. Ni is the echoing in the abyss, perpetually resisting the boundaries of externalities. Notice that from these definitions, you CAN have a real PoLR - you have a weakness/blind spot in that area. The interaction between Ti/Fe = downward exploration and the interaction between Fi/Te = upward trekking because downward and upward are subjective and so the field element is the decider. Ti and Fi are both biased. (So are Si and Ne but I'm yawning so maybe if something else occurs later I'll come back to that.)

Another interesting thing is that silverchris' assertion that Deltas have their backs to the abyss, because if that is so, it seems to be caricturing Quadras slightly. I might say in response that Betas refuse to look out of the abyss - but I don't believe either is true. Betas can look up and see infinite sky, and Deltas can look down and see infinite abyss. They're not sacrificing the classic Aristocratic bent towards polarities, but they are not blind to their opposing quadras validity - rarer are the moments when they will concede to a Democratic quadra's (essential to the Dem) compromise.

Alphas and Gammas have different ultimate goals but take notes on the terrain and the travel, and they can relate to hearing echoes of the abyss while seeing the freedom of the space away from its depths.

I'm not sure I believe that we aren't able to use our opposing functions in a workable manner, but I do believe one has to know the truth/core/strengths of one's self and be solid in that before attempting other ways of observation. I personally believe that all the functions belong in harmony and that Socionics should be used to facilitate harmony..and these forums are workable as tests but not as incredibly strong evidence. So I've sort of abandoned Socionics as something really concrete, because I'm more interested in the mysteries of the universe, and why hitta makes such a great Chewbacca.

[Gilly]

Your interpretation is a little too, uhh, BnD storybook for my taste. Your "pit" is just a placeholder for human nature, and upward/downward seem like metaphors for integration/disintegration. So while I see merit in your metaphor as a descriptor of human nature and tendencies, it's closer to Enneagram integration/disintegration stuff than socionics. If it's taken as a metaphor for socionics quadra progression, it's ridiculously biased and doesn't leave much room for either intra- or inter-quadra nuance.

[Ashton]

This is really good dolphin and I like quite a few of the points you make here.

I'll give you a more thorough reply in a bit.

Thanks for posting this.

[Gilly]

I don't really see the symbolic value in calling the bottom of the pit a party

I think that, conceptually, the ideas are sound from the broad scope, but your presentation feels off to me.

[dolphin]

Gilly, on 02 December 2010 - 01:47 PM, said:

Your interpretation is a little too, uhh, BnD storybook for my taste. Your "pit" is just a placeholder for human nature, and upward/downward seem like metaphors for integration/disintegration. So while I see merit in your metaphor as a descriptor of human nature and tendencies, it's closer to Enneagram integration/disintegration stuff than socionics. If it's taken as a metaphor for socionics quadra progression, it's ridiculously biased and doesn't leave much room for either intra- or inter-quadra nuance.

I feel that you're misinterpreting my metaphors. I tried to define them very clearly to avoid that sort of thing. All points within the environment described are valid places to be. And people can gain perspective by expanding their awareness to include other aspects of the experience besides their quadras pre-disposition.

Ashton, on 02 December 2010 - 01:58 PM, said:

This is really good dolphin and I like quite a few of the points you make here.

I'll give you a more thorough reply in a bit.

Thanks for posting this.

Thank you

[dolphin]

Gilly, on 02 December 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

I don't really see the symbolic value in calling the bottom of the pit a party

I think that, conceptually, the ideas are sound from the broad scope, but your presentation feels off to me.

It's a loose metaphor to convey a feel. You can extrapolate whatever sort of environments are applicable, using the terms supplied. I liked saying Satan's disco but it isn't essential to the concept really.

[Gilly]

Like I said, I think the basic idea and roles are right from a symbolic standpoint, but the particulars you've chosen don't seem very conducive to either translating this stuff to real life, or interpreting the situation with much nuance. I guess I feel like these ideas can be expressed without quite so much fluff, and thereby become much more readily applicable to real life situations and generally better suited for conceptual use.

[dolphin]

Gilly, on 02 December 2010 - 02:12 PM, said:

Like I said, I think the basic idea and roles are right from a symbolic standpoint, but the particulars you've chosen don't seem very conducive to either translating this stuff to real life, or interpreting the situation with much nuance. I guess I feel like these ideas can be expressed without quite so much fluff, and thereby become much more readily applicable to real life situations and generally better suited for conceptual use.

On the contrary, I feel it applies itself quite decently to real life. One can draw their own conclusions by substituting their own experience of people within the quadras, but I didn't post this to give a bare bones structure just because people dislike my interpretion - you can already interpret it in any way you like using the terms supplied. I'm not forcing anyone to subscribe to my own apparently "dramatic" interpretation, but I ask if you use the terms for your own views, please start another thread or something. I formatted it using my own individual (limited, I know) understanding of Socionics, but the stuff I've described has been the subject matter I haven't been able to quite get away from or see from a different perspective. So yes, it involves personal interpretation which you seem to see as "dramatic", which is slightly offensive because it's off the mark of what my intentions were when I wrote it.

[Nick]

I think the metaphor is solid, mainly because it doesn't detract from real life processes in its revelation.

Also, as to why there would be a dance in the abyss: if you're resigned to hell, why not jump in flames?

The faulty schism between theoretical structure and subjective impressions is the bane of socionics. The latter is what makes the former real.

[dolphin]

Hm well it's like..you can romanticize the abyss or not, depending on your position and personal inclinations...but if you want to consider it more simply, it works if you just consider placement. Deltas for instance see things that Se/Ni would take and applies them to a different scale of time/measurement of experience. I know Betas that don't "dance in the flames", but I still observe them to be immersed in their experience in a different way than Delta.

[dolphin]

So there's a lot of different ways you can use the material. I want to expand on it maybe. One thing I do think is that openness to lots of different material is generally positive. Like I think the enneagram is useful, but I think it's more useful to take what you can from it, what's useful, and to stop at the point when it starts to lose its value. Like if I have qualities I feel show up in my life from points in the enneagram other than what I've typed myself with, I'd like to stay open to learning about those points. The system is more useful to me that way. So if you use the abyss as a metaphor for your Socionics views, good, if it's a less dramatic interpretation to understand quadras interactions/relations to one another, or perhaps that the abyss is something more fluid that all people are aware of..

I guess what I'm saying is, try to take what's positive for yourself from it and use it to further your understanding instead of limit it. Yeah.

[nanashi]

I see descriptions like this as useful personally

I have noticed the Beta's attitude about the abyss you describe in the mentality in some of my friends: that they just think the world is awful and focus on getting what they can/what they want.

[Galen]

I remember you talking about this a while ago, and I still really like it. I actually referenced it once when talking to someone on tinychat


This may be what you're trying to say already, but I kinda see the subtypes in this frame of mind as an emphasis on either where you are (irrational) or where you're going (rational). It's like P subtypes place a much greater emphasis on the environment in which they exist (outside/inside the abyss) while J subtypes place their emphasis on the direction they are going (towards/away from the abyss). In that sense, shared J function subtypes are going to connect more with the directions they're going, and shared P function subtypes are much more in sync with the worlds they come to see. This can be a sort of primitive way of looking at intertype relations, and it kinda creates a new set of imbalanced relationships (more than just benefit and supervision). There'd need to be more actual research/observation on how these intersubtype relations work, but it seems like something that should be looked at.

[BulletsAndDoves]

Hey, now. There's nothing wrong with being BnD storyteller-ish!!!

[Nick]

nanashi, on 02 December 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:

I see descriptions like this as useful personally

I have noticed the Beta's attitude about the abyss you describe in the mentality in some of my friends: that they just think the world is awful and focus on getting what they can/what they want.

As a baseline, I tend to think that people should be aware of the laws of nature, so that they aren't confused when the animal kingdom consumes them. But I think this is fueled by an idealistic bent. Whenever I've taken a ruthlessly darwinian stance on something, it's only because I 'gave up.' So yeah, I think a lot of betas are self-induced into this kind of mentality, because the chasm between internal dynamics and external statics seems to widen and deepen the more one tries to reconcile it. sigh... where's the pitchfork

Galen, on 02 December 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

I remember you talking about this a while ago, and I still really like it. I actually referenced it once when talking to someone on tinychat


This may be what you're trying to say already, but I kinda see the subtypes in this frame of mind as an emphasis on either where you are (irrational) or where you're going (rational). It's like P subtypes place a much greater emphasis on the environment in which they exist (outside/inside the abyss) while J subtypes place their emphasis on the direction they are going (towards/away from the abyss). In that sense, shared J function subtypes are going to connect more with the directions they're going, and shared P function subtypes are much more in sync with the worlds they come to see. This can be a sort of primitive way of looking at intertype relations, and it kinda creates a new set of imbalanced relationships (more than just benefit and supervision). There'd need to be more actual research/observation on how these intersubtype relations work, but it seems like something that should be looked at.

I never thought about it this way, but it makes complete sense.

[BulletsAndDoves]

Okay, now for my reply to you. I both agreed and disagreed with your post and I'll get into the nitty gritty of it, because I'm bored. And since you are claiming to make grand gesture insights about how I supposedly am, I will look inside myself and I'll simply tell you how correct you are or not.

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Betas see themselves as completely trapped (placed) within external circumstances - both their external functions, Se and Ti, are static.

True, I do feel trapped. Nothing really to argue about here.

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Fe and Ni leads to an internality that's relatively in flux. Betas are in the middle of it all.

I guess. I feel like an outsider looking in when I first do something raw and real, but then later on I feel sucked up into the whole.

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Fe observes constantly appearing and shifting internal states, Ni questions the relevance of the existence of the abyss itself (it opposes longer strands of external environmental observation),

Wrong. I don't question existance itself. So when I first read this I sort of skimmed it over and it was like 'clouds that weren't there' to me because what you said just wasn't true for me. If I ever gave you that impression, I'm sorry.

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Se sees each moment as distinct in its own right, and Ti finds ways to structure the whole mess into some kind of coherance.

I'm a little confused by what you mean as both the abyss and what exactly do you mean by 'mess'. One man's mess is another man's divine epiphany. It's like you mean it to be this slow suicide neurotic nothingness mess that should be avoided, but then you kinda claim the abyss as some sort of metaphor for all of reality. I just feel you have to be clearer on this, because I think your value judgements are getting in the way here. When you say abyss do you mean just sort of the egoic thoughts we all have when we should just be getting a real job and doing straight man ish things?

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The interesting thing about being in the middle of the abyss is that you keep finding new ways to test the parameters, to discover the boundaries. I extrapolated smilingeyes material and say that Fe and Ti subtypes move downward into the abyss, and Se/Ni is being in the abyss. Beta Ti/Fe subtypes have pushed the boundaries of the exploration and then Ni/Se subtypes hit the middle point of the experiential perception, the deepest part of the hole.

Well, Nick does behave that way. I think what you're trying to say is that IEIs and SLEs go right for the heart. And heart is in the middle, the hub of everything and so it makes sense and IEI storybook romantic fags like me do indeed pull at heart strings. So you got me here.

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Gammas are climbing/walking out of the abyss.

Yeah. We connect fine usually and I don't doubt that we love each other to death, but I have this insecurity that you always feel like you're better than me, like 'I made it out you should too.' It's sort of stupid and high school ish that I think this way, I know, but it's just how I feel emo-ishly. I know you really like me and it's just my problem, but still I guess I'm more worried for you about it. Like I just want you to solve this gay inner magical world and straight real world divide that you have.

It's like, sometimes all I want to do is just connect and talk with you constantly but part of me feels that's wrong and like co-dependent so I don't. Like we'd just get mutually agitated with that even though the desire is strong. The only thing that's bugging me about what you wrote is you seem to have this value judgement about the abyss. And it seems to just be very frustrating for you. And that's fine, but it's just also confusing to me. I just think part of you can't help but view the abyss as bad. You will only start to truly respect me (respect, not love. Love is a natural given because of how compatible we already are) if I moved more but like you said, Betas are stuck.

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If the Beta Se/Ni subtypes are all about the last few shovels/wildest disco/having sex with Satan, Gamma Se/Nis are the morning afters waking up and scrabbling at the walls up.

Not to hurt your feelings but this is the part where I think you were being overly dramatic. Sex with Satan, jeesh. God I hope not. I might do it but I'd feel so guilty. I mean really do I seem like a person that would fuck Satan? Maybe, but don't we all fuck Satan. Isn't that the point of the adventures and Buffy and every superhero crap show, evil is fought within? I know you don't want to be attacked for what you wrote but dude, you just said that I like to sleep with Satan! You don't want to get offended by criticism but you said something kinda offensive lol.

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In some ways, they're forever clawing the prison walls, a survivor with the instinct of the dance fading away to be replaced with a determination of movement upwards. For these people the experiential quality has peaked and they possess the ability to survive admirably in the abyss. But their mindset is shifted upward and slightly away. For Gamma Fi/Te subtypes, the clarity of rock bottom has faded slightly. They're overcome with memories/instincts of it now and again but for a large part concentrate on the trek uphill.

I hear you loud and clear but this is why you frustrate me. Quite frankly you don't know how much you want to be in fag magical psychological world and how much you want to be in the raw practical mcdonalds world. And you do get natural self confidence for doing real world ish things but then you always come back on here and say very interesting things, making loser middle class mama boys fall in love with you. So what gives? ((and before any of you start defending her, I'm not attacking her)) It just confuses me because she's so ambivalent about this. I don't really care which side she picks, but if she's gonna do both then why not love both?

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Deltas see themselves as completely in control within themselves - both their internal functions, Ne and Fi, are static.

But I feel in control of myself too. Almost too much in control.

Quote

Si and Te observe their environments to be in motion. So the rise and fall of nations, etc, all pass by their eyes and is seen on a long timeline. The Fi/Te subtypes perpetually walk up the last edges of the abyss - they've put in the work of the travel, but can't dismiss the miles their feet have come to know as they order their environment with skill. Ne/Si subtype Deltas are the Ents of the Socion and they hold a certain sadness. Time's on a spindle for these people as they watch travelers disappear into the depths of the abyss, some coming out weary, some hopeful - and some never come out at all. So they turn their backs to the abyss, a primitive sort of wisdom as they staunchly hold their place while echoes of the revelry/despair come floating up from below.

I liked the last part. And most all of it I guess. No problems here with what you wrote.

[dolphin]

BulletsAndDoves, on 03 December 2010 - 11:12 AM, said:

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Fe observes constantly appearing and shifting internal states, Ni questions the relevance of the existence of the abyss itself (it opposes longer strands of external environmental observation),

Wrong. I don't question existance itself. So when I first read this I sort of skimmed it over and it was like 'clouds that weren't there' to me because what you said just wasn't true for me. If I ever gave you that impression, I'm sorry.

I was trying to emphasize how Si and Ni contrast here. It doesn't necessarily mean you are literally questioning existence..but you know when you question the value of what existence means and sort of redefine it for its impact-related value instead of looking at it the other way? You do it in the next paragraph, "One man's mess is another man's divine epiphany." for example.

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Se sees each moment as distinct in its own right, and Ti finds ways to structure the whole mess into some kind of coherance.

I'm a little confused by what you mean as both the abyss and what exactly do you mean by 'mess'. One man's mess is another man's divine epiphany. It's like you mean it to be this slow suicide neurotic nothingness mess that should be avoided, but then you kinda claim the abyss as some sort of metaphor for all of reality. I just feel you have to be clearer on this, because I think your value judgements are getting in the way here. When you say abyss do you mean just sort of the egoic thoughts we all have when we should just be getting a real job and doing straight man ish things?

I don't mean "mess" as a negative value judgment although the word conveyed a little bit of my personal irony experience with Betas. It's mostly just that Beta functions..putting them together is kind of like putting magnets in a box and they're constantly pinging around in there. There's always upheaval in some form going on. And the methods they use to control the upheaval I don't always understand. The abyss the heart, the flux, kind of like the pit that Ariel spins around in when Ursula takes away her voice, you know? It's like nothing externally is moving, it's just a cylinder hole you're in when all your inner stuff is spinning. But that's my personal bent on it, like a lot more Betas just see some external things as pretty static, so they adhere to them on the surface while keeping their emotions away. And in that way they move forward. And that's not so dramatic. It's not a slow suicide, it's the way concepts and perception moves or kind of sticks in the gullet. So it depends on what you want to use the analogy for.

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The interesting thing about being in the middle of the abyss is that you keep finding new ways to test the parameters, to discover the boundaries. I extrapolated smilingeyes material and say that Fe and Ti subtypes move downward into the abyss, and Se/Ni is being in the abyss. Beta Ti/Fe subtypes have pushed the boundaries of the exploration and then Ni/Se subtypes hit the middle point of the experiential perception, the deepest part of the hole.

Well, Nick does behave that way. I think what you're trying to say is that IEIs and SLEs go right for the heart. And heart is in the middle, the hub of everything and so it makes sense and IEI storybook romantic fags like me do indeed pull at heart strings. So you got me here.

It doesn't have to be "the hole" or all that jazz. If you want a less dramatic example I know a dual Beta irrational couple that are sort of "trapped" in the form of their lives. It's not negative, it's just that their perception lies right in the tangibility of what they experience from day to day. It's not that they're in hell or anything. lol. It's just that they don't see the rest of the canyon, metaphorically. Which isn't negative, again. They're just focusing on one aspect out of the whole. And then by polarizing themselves they seem to grasp the sky.

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Gammas are climbing/walking out of the abyss.

Yeah. We connect fine usually and I don't doubt that we love each other to death, but I have this insecurity that you always feel like you're better than me, like 'I made it out you should too.' It's sort of stupid and high school ish that I think this way, I know, but it's just how I feel emo-ishly. I know you really like me and it's just my problem, but still I guess I'm more worried for you about it. Like I just want you to solve this gay inner magical world and straight real world divide that you have.

It's like, sometimes all I want to do is just connect and talk with you constantly but part of me feels that's wrong and like co-dependent so I don't. Like we'd just get mutually agitated with that even though the desire is strong. The only thing that's bugging me about what you wrote is you seem to have this value judgement about the abyss. And it seems to just be very frustrating for you. And that's fine, but it's just also confusing to me. I just think part of you can't help but view the abyss as bad. You will only start to truly respect me (respect, not love. Love is a natural given because of how compatible we already are) if I moved more but like you said, Betas are stuck.

If you think of it function wise, and I don't mean to talk theory to counter your point, but the theory does relate personally with me, is that your internality keeps moving. You've got the Fe and the Ni that keep on reframing things and updating and just flux up your perception so you're not stuck. So you don't have to move a lot to counter it, your thinking does it for you. I'm a static type. It does help me to reframe things with Ni when I get it from other people, but one of my inner functions, Fi, is kind of stuck. It's like perception that sticks in the gullet. I like that phrase. Anyway, that means the external sort of momentum that Te brings helps me. I have to move externally in order to counteract the Fi. So it's not a judgment on you, but I'm sort of destined to be continually pulling those pieces together, just like you're sort of destined to stay stuck. It's just what being between Beta and Delta means you know?

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If the Beta Se/Ni subtypes are all about the last few shovels/wildest disco/having sex with Satan, Gamma Se/Nis are the morning afters waking up and scrabbling at the walls up.

Not to hurt your feelings but this is the part where I think you were being overly dramatic. Sex with Satan, jeesh. God I hope not. I might do it but I'd feel so guilty. I mean really do I seem like a person that would fuck Satan? Maybe, but don't we all fuck Satan. Isn't that the point of the adventures and Buffy and every superhero crap show, evil is fought within? I know you don't want to be attacked for what you wrote but dude, you just said that I like to sleep with Satan! You don't want to get offended by criticism but you said something kinda offensive lol.

I'm sorry the wording offended you. I am being a little dramatic there. I guess I find it hard to detach from my personal experience with this part. Maybe it seems silly or offensive to you but, this is my quadra writings, not yours. It does have my personal experience into it and that's that. If you need something more Ti-ish because my PoLR is offending you, maybe you should read what Gilly has to say on quadra progression.

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Deltas see themselves as completely in control within themselves - both their internal functions, Ne and Fi, are static.

But I feel in control of myself too. Almost too much in control.

I should probably clarify that in that, Deltas have no internal dynamics. Functionally. It's not so much being in control as it is you have to reframe circumstances to keep yourself "moving". Your external circumstances have to do all the shifting and adapting. That's why Delta observations stick in the gullet so much. It makes them rigid in some situations and fragile in ways and strong in others.

[BulletsAndDoves]

Okay thanks for clearing things up. Yes it is interesting how I do seem destined to stay stuck no matter what happens, and you are destined to keep moving.

[BulletsAndDoves]

BulletsAndDoves, on 03 December 2010 - 01:01 PM, said:

Okay thanks for clearing things up. Yes it is interesting how I do seem destined to stay stuck no matter what happens, and you are destined to keep moving.

And I'd also like to comment on:

Quote

Functionally. It's not so much being in control as it is you have to reframe circumstances to keep yourself "moving". Your external circumstances have to do all the shifting and adapting. That's why Delta observations stick in the gullet so much. It makes them rigid in some situations and fragile in ways and strong in others.

Yeah I really like that. And also, I just realized earlier how much it emotionally bothers me when people move around so much. Like you know how I was 'blah blah blah narcissistic California orange' in my poetry. And my rant about how I think love is loyalty. You only halfway do this though...cause we value two of the same functions. Betas stick with me completely, Deltas move around 100% and you being Gamma, do this 50%. Plus we're semi-duals and romance each other naturally a lot, and can't help this so the moving around part you do doesn't quite bother me as much....but still it's interesting how you seem to be onto something there.

And that 50% thing you do also relates to how wishy washy you are with the gay magical/straight reality stuff too so its like everything is connected and fits in my head okay with that lol. *divine drag queen sigh*

[Nick]

Quote

kind of like the pit that Ariel spins around in when Ursula takes away her voice, you know?

Ariel was hot.

[Nick]

The idea of always staying in the same place no matter how much you move feels like a death sentence.

[dolphin]

BulletsAndDoves, on 03 December 2010 - 01:10 PM, said:

Yeah I really like that. And also, I just realized earlier how much it emotionally bothers me when people move around so much. Like you know how I was 'blah blah blah narcissistic California orange' in my poetry. And my rant about how I think love is loyalty. You only halfway do this though...cause we value two of the same functions. Betas stick with me completely, Deltas move around 100% and you being Gamma, do this 50%. Plus we're semi-duals and romance each other naturally a lot, and can't help this so the moving around part you do doesn't quite bother me as much....but still it's interesting how you seem to be onto something there.

And that 50% thing you do also relates to how wishy washy you are with the gay magical/straight reality stuff too so its like everything is connected and fits in my head okay with that lol. *divine drag queen sigh*

Haha. So, to clarify something dudes and dudesses. Everyone is moving in some way, and everyone is static in some way. It's about cycles of perception, okay? This isn't a metaphor for Betas being stuck in the slammer of life. It's where their perception is focused in relation to other quadras. "Moving" isn't necessarily positive if you look at it in the way of, I'm doomed to be climbing up this abyss but the climbing never ends, alright? If I believe I'm like this, I could frame it in a way where I'm walking in place. Da dee da dee dum fo fee fo. I'm walking in place. La la la.

If you don't want to be "stuck", you're not stuck. Your perception folds over internally, and you spiritually flit between the obstacles and knock those haters the fuck out. You learn to work with what you've been given.

[nanashi]

Galen, on 02 December 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

I remember you talking about this a while ago, and I still really like it. I actually referenced it once when talking to someone on tinychat


This may be what you're trying to say already, but I kinda see the subtypes in this frame of mind as an emphasis on either where you are (irrational) or where you're going (rational). It's like P subtypes place a much greater emphasis on the environment in which they exist (outside/inside the abyss) while J subtypes place their emphasis on the direction they are going (towards/away from the abyss). In that sense, shared J function subtypes are going to connect more with the directions they're going, and shared P function subtypes are much more in sync with the worlds they come to see. This can be a sort of primitive way of looking at intertype relations, and it kinda creates a new set of imbalanced relationships (more than just benefit and supervision). There'd need to be more actual research/observation on how these intersubtype relations work, but it seems like something that should be looked at.

I think this describes the difference I feel when my INFj-Ne ? mom and INTp-Ni sister seem more aligned than they do with me as a rational subtype.