22 replies to this topic

[Gilly]

So this has sort of been my pet topic in Socionics for the last year or so, and I'm curious what other people's thoughts on the matter are, ie how they see the isolated roles of the quadras, intra-quadra interplay between the types in this role, how you see the transitions between quadras working, etc. I have my own ideas on the subject, but I'd like to get a feel for how other people view the topic before expounding at length and projecting all over everyone.

[bullet]

I would say 4-on-the-floor, that's what the world is made of!

Oh, and post some links or something. A year is a long term, if you were seriously studying quadra progression subject.

[Gilly]

Bah, all of my threads are locked out of my grasp on the16types...

[Golden]

Gilly, on 06 November 2010 - 05:45 PM, said:

Bah, all of my threads are locked out of my grasp on the16types...

Any of these?--

http://www.the16type...rogression.html

http://www.the16type...a-dynamics.html

http://www.the16type...dow-quadra.html

Others?

[Gilly]

Wunderbar! My eternal thanks. I will be proxying and pasting these threads here. I would have found them myself but the only proxy i know of is epically slow and life is just too short for that shit.

[Gilly]

bullet, on 06 November 2010 - 06:08 AM, said:

I would say 4-on-the-floor, that's what the world is made of!

Oh, and post some links or something. A year is a long term, if you were seriously studying quadra progression subject.

Well the actual "studying" is more along the lines of observing people, their tendencies, and how they embody a personal archetype that says something about whatever strange puzzle humanity weaves itself into.

[bullet]

yeah, shit like that... i was running over these stupid 4x4 ideas and all that magnetic manga shit back then i was still in school... and you know after all these quadra socionic progression the basic feeling over society hasn't changed in me. that's kinda yuck, shit gotta change, lol!!!

[Gilly]

Well without direct exposure I can't speak for the rest of the world, but the US is probably in the stage I would characterize as Alpha p-sub rational: the massive influx of technology of the 90s is in the process of being socially integrated, and the "hipster" movement is an early sign of Alpha Rational "loose collectivism." I'd guess that we'll hit a Beta stage, and thus lots of social shit being in upheaval, within the next 10-15 years, followed by a Gamma stage where policies, and potentially forms of government, will be modified and large-scale concrete change will happen. But first we will go through Alpha j-sub rationals, which will likely entail media controversies over new technological advances and a rise of interest in specific public figures, then the j-sub rational stage, which is mostly characterized by large, loose, alternate-culture oriented collectivities (hippies of the 60s are the classic example), which eventually condense into more dedicated, active "enclaves," and public figures begin to align themselves overtly for or against "the cause," a la transition to Beta Aristocracy and Se/Ni values. Then the real fun begins

We haven't seen a real revolution in this country since, well, the Revolutionary War, and they swung and missed in the 60s so we could learn from their mistakes...who knows what this country will look like by 2030.

God I sound like tcaud.

[bullet]

we should start collecting shit in our bunkers ! i need salt !

[Gilly]

Nah we got time before that. Doing some pushups and buying a gun couldn't hurt though.

[Gilly]

Besides, you're in Europe, which is pretty burnt out on the global front; any major shit is going to go down in the US and Asia before anywhere else.

[Nick]

Well, it will probably force in a beta stage in the relative future, but it depends on how well the agenda jives. As of right now, European countries are very much being fucked over one by one, as their interdependence and ties to central banks make for the perfect domino sequence. Ireland–>Spain–>Portugal–>Italy–>Germany... though it's fairly interchangeable (Greece is already screwed). But three of those countries I'm certain of the beta roots, which is already being witnessed in Ireland's revolts, strengthened by an aggregate of alpha-esque disdain for the corruption of open democracy. The US is much more disintegrated, you could say the founding ideals were somewhat alpha-driven, especially in the way they were delivered, but given the relation of the populace to the governing powers, the central division just becomes free men and slaves, the ironic inevitability in the Constitution. In any sort of transition itself, I wouldn't expect any beta stage to last, I'm more reminded of the last line from Gangs of New York as an indicator, because the agenda being imposed is simply mass-scale evil. But I could also easily see a very abrupt gamma stage happening as an outgrowth of a beta plunge, because well, that's what they're there for.

Quote

Nah we got time before that. Doing some pushups and buying a gun couldn't hurt though.

No, time is short. Just the other day, a man was sentenced to seven years in jail for possessing guns he owned legally. Apparently his mom called the cops out of concern when he made a comment about life being futile. Just another sign of the times. This along with things like DHS tyrannically seizing a handful of websites (example) and an internet censorship bill "sailing through the Senate" (temporarily delayed, most likely to no avail)is only further testament to the precipitous path we're heading down – blindly, for the most part, it seems. People need to be smacked out of this hypnosis.

[Gilly]

IMO Europe is primarily Alpha in relation to the world; Asia is largely Beta and America is Gamma/Delta. Honestly, fighting just broke out again between North and South Korea; I think we all know where things are really going. Asia, ie Beta, will get ganged up on by the rest of the world, and will ultimately lose, but make a...ahhh...splash that will certainly change the course of things. I think once we've gotten the results of of "communism" ie dictatorship thrown in our faces during a time of crisis, America will likely remember its roots and swing back to being more economically liberal.

[Nick]

Gilly, on 30 November 2010 - 10:51 PM, said:

IMO Europe is primarily Alpha in relation to the world; Asia is largely Beta and America is Gamma/Delta. Honestly, fighting just broke out again between North and South Korea; I think we all know where things are really going. Asia, ie Beta, will get ganged up on by the rest of the world, and will ultimately lose, but make a...ahhh...splash that will certainly change the course of things. I think once we've gotten the results of of "communism" ie dictatorship thrown in our faces during a time of crisis, America will likely remember its roots and swing back to being more economically liberal.

I agree about Europe – Norway is actually a solid alpha example. Canada also seems pretty alpha, and it's funny how these countries are like the political stardust of the US's non-existent democratic policy.

The fighting between North and South Korea was planned. It's pretty intricate, but basically when you look at all the allies, and then of course Israel, there's a trail. I don't think that will necessarily be the WWIII catalyst, but it's being used in conjunction with this contrived wikileaks episode to further embitter various countries, mainly US and the Middle East, because that's another solid pretext (and Israel wasn't hurt, ofc). Asia isn't going to be ganged up on by anyone, they're viewed as the model country. I remember the US even illuminating Red Communist colors in the Empire State Building on one of the anniversaries of Mao. And if you look at the US's trend, with the new molestation policies at airports, idiotic bills like the Food Safety Act which bans free agriculture, etc., it is a communist dictatorship merely waiting to be unveiled once Mr. Negro Liberal (who was raised by the CIA) is out of the way. Also, the main reasons America has seemed economically liberal in the past: the Rockefeller mindset was a useful tool for the populace during the industrial boom and buildup to the inevitable credit decimation; having a bunch of asian slaves give us excess toys maintains a sense of entitled prosperity in localities. For now, the uh, "liberal economists" are the ones like Bernanke, appointed by Obama despite (or in praise of) their predominant role in bringing about the derivative crisis. And they're still as open-minded as ever!

[Gilly]

We just got pathetically greedy and self-righteous, and it's fucking us in the ass.

[Nick]

After all, it was the aim.

"The few who can understand the system will be either so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favours, that there will be no opposition from that class, while, on the other hand, that great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that Capital derives from the system, will bear its burden without complaint and, perhaps, without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests." – Rothschilds to New York agents around the time of the Fed's introduction

[dolphin]

Here are my thoughts on quadra progression..pulled from something I wrote a while back at 16 types..silverchris thought of an abyss, and I liked it. And smilingeyes defined the functions progressing, and these are also the concepts I'm using.

Terms

external = generally quantifiable and measurable
internal = generally unquantifiable and unmeasurable

static = generally at rest
dynamic = generally in motion

extroverted = object, generally apart from subject
introverted = subject, generally connected to subject

Smilingeyes terms

Spoiler

Descriptions of the states of quadras.

Te-Fi-Te
A state in which there is no potential. The maximum of peace and clarity. The halfway point between stress and calm, in which societies are created and contracts and duties agreed on.

Concrete Te & Fi
A state of confidence and comfort over having found one’s role and place.

Delta
A state of communication in which the statics wish to use Ne- to affect the dynamics who proceed to correct them with Te+. Personal freedom is measured and chartered this way.

Abstract Ne & Si
A state in which maximal freedom and personal choice is sought for so that certainty of independence and invulnerability is achieved.

Ne-Si-Ne
A state in which nothing is happening. The maximum of personal choice and free will. The halfway point between no potential and huge potential in which huge expectations arise and powerful dreams are created.

Concrete Ne & Si
A state of confidence and comfort over being one’s own master and being able to choose one’s own path and actions.

Alpha
A state of communication in which the dynamics wish to use Fe- to affect the statics who proceed to correct them with Ne+. Powerful and charismatic groups are formed this way.

Abstract Fe & Ti
A state in which maximal potential and extraordinary qualities are sought for so that certainty of eventual fulfilment of one’s plans and dreams is achieved.

Fe-Ti-Fe
A state in which everything is possible. The maximum of personal responsibility and fear. The halfway point between calm and stress, in which opposing forces gather, symbols are raised and lines are drawn.

Concrete Fe & Ti
A state of confidence and comfort over being able to achieve anything.

Beta
A state of communication in which the statics wish to use Se- to affect the dynamics who proceed to correct them with Fe+. Conflicts are settled and power is measured this way.

Abstract Se & Ni
A state in which maximal intensity of contact is sought for so that certainty of power might be achieved.

Se-Ni-Se
A state in which huge and important things happen. The maximum of interaction, intensity and challenge. The halfway point between huge potential and no potential, in which clarity of how things must fall into their place is achieved and final decisions are made.

Concrete Se & Ni
A state of confidence and comfort over the obstacles one has faced and personal capability.

Gamma
A state of communication in which the dynamics wish to use Te- to affect the statics who proceed to correct them with Se+. Plans for functional cooperation are laid this way.

Abstract Te & Fi
A state in which maximal obligations and bonds are sought for so that certainty of one’s role in life and society is achieved.

(Don't get pedantic on my terms. )


So imagine an abyss. Or a huge hole in the ground with sloping sides. With ghosties and a bit of black electricity crackling away inside. Maybe Satan's disco too.


Aristocratic Quadras

Both the placement of Betas in the abyss and Deltas with their back to it signifies a sort of resignation within circumstances.

Democratic Quadras

The placement of Alpha as looking/climbing down into the abyss and Gamma looking/climbing up signifies a constant movement in relation to circumstances.

Progression

Alphas are looking into the abyss because "everyone wants to go to the big Beta party". Internally, they're pulled between Ne which defines internal qualities statically and Delta-ishly stable, and Beta Fe which is drawn towards internal experimentation and change. Alpha Ne/Si subtypes are going to peeking in from their birds eye view of the environment, Ti/Fe subtypes may be starting to actively move towards the abyss, exploring the possibilities of a gradual descent. Alpha looks into the chaos contained in the abyss but stays at enough of a distance to retain their mastery of their environment. This is a way they are "playful". They have the inclination towards mastery of the environment but the Ti/Fe preference seems to say "So what? Let's go try something different!"

Betas see themselves as completely trapped (placed) within external circumstances - both their external functions, Se and Ti, are static. Fe and Ni leads to an internality that's relatively in flux. Betas are in the middle of it all. Fe observes constantly appearing and shifting internal states, Ni questions the relevance of the existence of the abyss itself (it opposes longer strands of external environmental observation), Se sees each moment as distinct in its own right, and Ti finds ways to structure the whole mess into some kind of coherance. The interesting thing about being in the middle of the abyss is that you keep finding new ways to test the parameters, to discover the boundaries. I extrapolated smilingeyes material and say that Fe and Ti subtypes move downward into the abyss, and Se/Ni is being in the abyss. Beta Ti/Fe subtypes have pushed the boundaries of the exploration and then Ni/Se subtypes hit the middle point of the experiential perception, the deepest part of the hole.

Gammas are climbing/walking out of the abyss. If the Beta Se/Ni subtypes are all about the last few shovels/wildest disco/having sex with Satan, Gamma Se/Nis are the morning afters waking up and scrabbling at the walls up. In some ways, they're forever clawing the prison walls, a survivor of with the instinct of the dance fading away to be replaced with a determination of movement upwards. For these people the experiential quality has peaked and they possess the ability to survive admirably in the abyss. But their mindset is shifted upward and slightly away. For Gamma Fi/Te subtypes, the clarity of rock bottom has faded slightly. They're overcome with memories/instincts of it now and again but for a large part concentrate on the trek uphill.

Deltas see themselves as completely in control within themselves - both their internal functions, Ne and Fi, are static. Si and Te observe their environments to be in motion. So the rise and fall of nations, etc, all pass by their eyes and is seen on a long timeline. The Fi/Te subtypes perpetually walk up the last edges of the abyss - they've put in the work of the travel, but can't dismiss the miles their feet have come to know as they order their environment with skill. Ne/Si subtype Deltas are the Ents of the Socion and they hold a certain sadness. Time's on a spindle for these people as they watch travelers disappear into the depths of the abyss, some coming out weary, some hopeful - and some never come out at all. So they turn their backs to the abyss, a primitive sort of wisdom as they staunchly hold their place while echoes of the revelry/despair come floating up from below.

Odds and Ends

Where are the functions? Where are the PoLRs? You can take the solidness order of the functions: Se Te Ti Si Ne Fe Fi Ni - Se is the rocks, form that is similar to rocks, people, things, external objects, etc. Te is the progression of the journey on a tangible level. Ti categorizes concepts of the subject into an external structure, into categories, this is moving down, what does it mean? Si is the view of the entire landscape, the person's place within the landscape anchored by Ne, internal concepts of people and concepts that stand the test of time against the entirety of the abyss. Fe is the journey from an internal view, states. Fi's structure doesn't let the constant movement of the external world disturb the subject as they climb upward. Ni is the echoing in the abyss, perpetually resisting the boundaries of externalities. Notice that from these definitions, you CAN have a real PoLR - you have a weakness/blind spot in that area. The interaction between Ti/Fe = downward exploration and the interaction between Fi/Te = upward trekking because downward and upward are subjective and so the field element is the decider. Ti and Fi are both biased. (So are Si and Ne but I'm yawning so maybe if something else occurs later I'll come back to that.)

Another interesting thing is that silverchris' assertion that Deltas have their backs to the abyss, because if that is so, it seems to be caricturing Quadras slightly. I might say in response that Betas refuse to look out of the abyss - but I don't believe either is true. Betas can look up and see infinite sky, and Deltas can look down and see infinite abyss. They're not sacrificing the classic Aristocratic bent towards polarities, but they are not blind to their opposing quadras validity - rarer are the moments when they will concede to a Democratic quadra's (essential to the Dem) compromise.

Alphas and Gammas have different ultimate goals but take notes on the terrain and the travel, and they can relate to hearing echoes of the abyss while seeing the freedom of the space away from its depths.

I'm not sure I believe that we aren't able to use our opposing functions in a workable manner, but I do believe one has to know the truth/core/strengths of one's self and be solid in that before attempting other ways of observation. I personally believe that all the functions belong in harmony and that Socionics should be used to facilitate harmony..and these forums are workable as tests but not as incredibly strong evidence. So I've sort of abandoned Socionics as something really concrete, because I'm more interested in the mysteries of the universe, and why hitta makes such a great Chewbacca.

[Gilly]

To me, the most important aspect of understanding the quadras is the interchanges between quadras, how the transitions are made; solid concepts of what these transitions imply, which, IMO, are more intuitively accessible than the full, flesh-out natures of the quadras themselves (as they tend to encompass more, what with being the interaction/meeting point of 6 functions instead of 4, but require less deliberate interpretation because the events themselves are archetypal in nature and fairly self-explanatory) pretty much allows the ideas of what quadras encompass to flesh itself out, fill in between the critical points.

[Nick]

me likes. lol @ having sex with satan.

[Gilly]

The events as I see them (in progress):

Delta -> Alpha

1. Si/Ne Irrational axis (Te/Fi -> Fe/Ti methods; Si/Ne ideology): Ideas concerned with lifestyle and spirituality begin to be questioned, giving rise to more naturalistic, holistic, de-compartmentalized ideology. Freedom of expression, cooperation on the basis of free-will, and positive interaction begin to be prioritized. Transition: ethical principles have been incorporated and are beginning to find their expression, while methods of operation have become solidified and internalized, and new priorities are emphasized in terms of their resulting impact on the functioning of humanity while operating under conditioned principles.

2. Si/Ne Rational axis (Si/Ne focus -> Si/Ne methods; Si/Ne ideology): Cathexis on the level of smaller groups ordered generally around cooperation that is, from a psychological perspective, designed to promote new lifestyle/spiritual changes via their deliberate practice and personal development. Transition: establishment of new priorities has been internalized, and the need for their full expression and practice with integrity becomes paramount.

3. Ti/Fe Irrational axis (Ti/Fe focus -> Ti/Fe methods; Ti/Fe ideology):

4.

[Gilly]

Had some interesting morning-thoughts on functional quadras and functional groupings.

NT: Worldview
SF: Relations
NF: Spirituality
ST: Actions

Introversion: crystallization, containment, fleshed out, planned, etc.
Extroversion: openness, unpredictability, room for change/maneuvering, etc.

A "pure" functional pairing, with two Extroverted or two Introverted functions, constitutes an "absolutist" or idealized stance; a mixed pairing constitutes a "practical" or functional stance

Functional Blocks representing types ("mixed pairings") dictate attitudes and dispositions that influence real-world interactions and decisions, while homogeneous "pure" pairings represent archetypal priorities

Democrats:

Worldview is promoted by Relations
Relations are enhanced by Worldview
Spirituality and Actions are idealized
Worldview and Relations are practical


Aristocrats:

Spirituality is promoted by Actions
Actions are enhanced by Spirituality
Worldview and Relations are idealized
Spirituality and Actions are practical

Alpha:

TiSi: Actions are crystallized
NeFe: Spirituality is open



Beta:

TiNi: Worldview is crystallized
SeFe: Relations are open

Gamma:

NiFi: Spirituality is crystallized
SeTe: Actions are open

Delta:

SiFi: Relations are crystallized
NeTe: Worldview is open

[Nick]

yeah

[dolphin]

This is cool Gilly!