35 replies to this topic

[dolphin]

Do you know of any?

[Ashton]

Nick, on Sep 15 2008, 03:17 PM, said:

Bob Dylan?


lol

Yeah that's one. Some others off the top of my head:

Elvis Presley (Fi-ESFp)
Enrique Iglesias (Fi-ISFj)
Gia Farrell (Te-ENTj)
Chris Daughtry (?-ENTj)
Josh Ritter (Fi-ISFj)

Jimi Hendrix might be INTp.

[dolphin]

Ashton, on Sep 15 2008, 07:30 PM, said:

Jimi Hendrix might be INTp.

Haha yeah. He looks a little like cpig. lol

[dolphin]

Ashton, on Sep 15 2008, 07:30 PM, said:

Enrique Iglesias (Fi-ISFj)

yuck

[Riddy]

Ummm....Kelly Clarkson is an ENTj methinks.

Mark Knopfler could be an INTp as well...although I'm not for sure.

[FDG]

Kid Rock - ESFp ?

[Ashton]

FDG, on Sep 23 2008, 10:04 AM, said:

Kid Rock - ESFp ?

I don't think he's ESFp. Ti-ESTp seems eminently possible to me for his type. Lol, the facial hair style (really common to ESTps for some reason) could be unreasonably throwing me off into that direction though.

[dolphin]

whhhhy are there no gamma musicians


bob dylan bob dylan bob dylan bob dylan

[Riddy]

Some Gamma musicians, comin' at ya...

Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits - Ni-INTp





Brian Eno, legendary producer and father or ambient music - Ni-INTp






I could be wrong on the subtype on these guys, but I'm awfully sure they are both INTps.

[borderline]

pesto, on Sep 30 2008, 08:04 AM, said:

He totally VIs like Shirley Temple.




Te-ENTj 8w7 sx/sp. Definitely.

[Ashton]

pesto, on Sep 30 2008, 08:04 AM, said:

Looks like Gilly

[christy_b]

Nick, on Sep 23 2008, 08:33 PM, said:

Nah, he's Te-ISTp.

Delta st for Kid Rock ... LSE Si or SLI Te

(he's hot - lol)

[eunice]

christy_b, on Oct 2 2008, 02:28 PM, said:

Delta st for Kid Rock ... LSE Si or SLI Te

(he's hot - lol)

-1.

[Riddy]

How could I forget Ludacris? (Te-ENTj)

[christy_b]

Riddy, on Oct 5 2008, 12:51 AM, said:

How could I forget Ludacris? (Te-ENTj)

Oh man! so right... Ludacris is probably ENTj... Ludacris

[machintruc]

http://www.waste.org...nt242/bandinfo/

Front 242 is Gamma.

Daniel Bressanutti : SEE (may be SLE)
Jean-Luc DeMeyer : ESI
Patrick Codenys : ILI
Richard 23 : LIE

[borderline]

machintruc, on Oct 18 2008, 01:48 PM, said:

Front 242 is Gamma.

ESFp, ESI, ILI, LIE? Hmmm. :/

[machintruc]

Negativland is stereotypical ILI music. I'd rather drink my own diarrhoea than listening to this

[crazedrat]

edited for wrongness

[Ashton]

crazedrat, on Oct 24 2008, 09:46 PM, said:

john lennon: entj

Definitely not ENTj. Probably ENTp.

Quote

paul mccartney: isfj-Se

Fe-ISFp for certain. Not Se-ISFj.

Quote

red hot chili peppers lead singer: esfp-Fi

ENFp is most likely. He is no ESFp.

Quote

jim morrison of the doors: intp-Te

Some Beta most likely. Could be ESTp.

Quote

blonde redhead lead singer kazu: intp-Ni

INFp would be my best hypothesis for her.

Quote

bob dylan: isfj-Fi

Se-ISFj.

Quote

britney spears (unfortunately): esfp-Se

Absolutely not Se-ESFp. No way, no how. She is 100% positively Fe-ISFp.

Quote

jimmy page of led zeppelin: INTp

I can't rule this out. INTp is possible.

Quote

Robert Plant: ISFj-Fi (vaguely possible I'm wrong on Mr. Plant)

He's some Fe-valuer, so Beta or Alpha. And he's not IJ temperament. ENFj isn't unreasonable.

Quote

Jack White of The White Stripes: ISFj-Fi

Not Fi-ISFj, not Gamma. Could be ISFp or INFp easily.

Quote

Lead singer of The Cure: ENTj

Beta extrovert. Definitely no ENTj.

Quote

Michael Stipe is ENFj-Ni.

ENFj seems likely. ISTj also possible.

Quote

Thom Yorke is INFp-Ni.

Somewhat possible. Also could be an Alpha introvert.

Quote

These two Beta Ni types can seem alot like Gamma at first glance, especially if they have a complimentary dual type.

They didn't seem the least bit Gamma to me.

[crazedrat]

You have just done the most annoying thing you could possibly do in this situation. You have corrected me with pathetic, weak thoughts. If you think i am going to waste an hour or so of my time, plus an additional 3 or 4 hours arguing over the retard scratch you just blurbbed out, you're wrong. Do not reply to my posts ever again.

How you could see anything remotely ESTp in this person is lost to me

[Ashton]

crazedrat, on Oct 25 2008, 03:50 AM, said:

You have just done the most annoying thing you could possibly do in this situation. You have corrected me with pathetic, weak thoughts. If you think i am going to waste an hour or so of my time, plus an additional 3 or 4 hours arguing over the retard scratch you just blurbbed out, you're wrong. Do not reply to my posts ever again.

You don't have to feel slighted. I'm not really correcting you - except in the case of Britney Spears, Paul McCartney, and Bob Dylan whose types I've already done enough research on to consolidate an appropriate confidence in my assessment. The rest of them I'm merely suggesting to you for the most part, since an exhaustive analysis atm of all these remaining individuals would be well, exhausting.

Quote

How you could see anything remotely ESTp in this person is lost to me

I'll watch this later, have to go to work.

[crazedrat]

The people I listed, with the exception of Britney Spears and Robert Plant (Plant I think you may of been correct about; I always have thought his input tainted Led Zeppelin), were my role models growing up. I have religiously listened to their music, watched interviews, contemplated what they had to say... for the last 7 or so years. Studying their music has been one of my main hobbies.
I am confident Bob dylan is Fi. I am not sure your criterion for determining subtypes, but at this point there are not enough objective criterion in socionics to argue about subtypes. In this area of socionics, at this point in time, I can only share feelings with you on this matter; as can you, and I say Bob is distinctly different from people like Allie, and that Bob also unfortunately reminds me fo an Ex of mine who was ISFj-Fi. ISFj, though, is a sure bet.
If you cannot hear Fi in Pauls music then you are deaf.
If somehow you hear Fe then I don't get you, but I'd like you to elaborate.
Paul is the same type as Allie. She also can be politically elegant when the need arises. But her most powerful function is a specific, situational framework of moral convictions. That is what distinguishes her as a Fi type. Political awareness doesn't presume Fe dominance. Fe as an Id function is also powerful.
You can see the same type of situational moralism in many of Pauls interviews, as well as in his impact on the culture as a whole; with the long hair, beatlemania, all you need is love, and the eventual hippie culture. As for my subjective impressions; and these are all I can use in arguing subtypes, as I clarified earlier, an Ex girlfriend of mind who was ISFj-Se.. nothing reminds me more of, and brings me back to the place I was in with her, than listening to a few of paul mccartneys works.
His duality with Lennon is further testament to his type; the beatles had an undeniable chemistry with one another.
Granted, Lennon is a different subtype than you. If you want to start in on Lennon, I'm ready. I've read his biography and watched a number of interviews.
If you're having elaborate reasons why you think Paul is alpha, then I'd like to hear them, despite me knowing they are rediculous.
Britney spears symbolizes the worst traits of Gamma quadra. Any self respected alpha is detested by her self indulgent, vain art. Mention her name to an INTj and watch the reaction.
The notion she is ISFp makes no sense. ISFp is not like this. They are conservative.
ESFp-Fi is far the more common form of ESFp. ESFp-Se can be hard to identify for people who haven't interacted with one personally. I had trouble with it even; and they are my full dual, until I met one recently. I then became interested in britney spears, and watched a couple of interviews of her. The mannerisms and speech patterns line up, as well as my subjective reaction and sense of potential for dual relations which I get from her in interviews.
The other person on the list it is possible you are right about is the lead singer of The Cure. I have not collected enough information to be 100% certain on him either. Although I am fairly certain of a Te dominance & Fi dual seeking function.
You are also absolutely wrong about Kazu, Jim Morrison, Jack White, & RHCP singer.

[crazedrat]

On Jon & Paul having problems with eachother...
1: In my opinion they are conflict duals- i.e., ENTj-Te vs. ISFj-Se
2: They went through a lot together. For a very long time they were great friends. In the end they returned to being friends, writing together.
3: Creative persons tend to have highly volatile personalities
4: Duals can sometimes hate eachother more passionately than others may hate eachother, because they matter more to one another
5: Most of their feud was about how Paul sucked up the limelight shamelessly, where Lennon was moving toward natural expression and looked down on this sort of fake exploitation. He seemed to identify when Paul was using it with pinpoint clarity. Paul thought Jon was a hypocrite for this stance
6: It is difficult to imagine the stress of being as famous as the beatles were.


This video is a good example of duality. It's an interview of John and Paul together. It really reminds me of a relationship I had with ESFp-Fi a while back who worked with me. It's a bit rebellious and undermining of authority... also somewhat manic, but really just kinda funny to watch. This sort of unmatched subtype duality is different then matched subtype duality. The matched subtype duality is less manic and more intimate. John & Pauls public personas, I think, developed in duality, and for the rest of their career were influenced in light of the sentiments you see here

[Khamelion]

crazedrat, on Oct 25 2008, 04:50 AM, said:

You have just done the most annoying thing you could possibly do in this situation. You have corrected me with pathetic, weak thoughts. If you think i am going to waste an hour or so of my time, plus an additional 3 or 4 hours arguing over the retard scratch you just blurbbed out, you're wrong. Do not reply to my posts ever again.

How you could see anything remotely ESTp in this person is lost to me

we have to remember the drugs man...the drugs.


im not claiming to know what type he is or anything, but being stoned out of his mind is a pretty explanation for not really coming of as a Ep type of any kind

[Khamelion]

stipe is definitely NOT a Se type IMHO


and Ej, whether it be ENFj or ENTj seems most likely. for some reason im inclined towards him being ENFj-Ni more than ENTj....but i always hate typing celebrities and stuff anyway. i dont like typing people i can't get to know personally.

[crazedrat]

Jim Morrison spent about 6 years mostly in his room reading poetry and contemplating philosophy and psychology, up until he went off to college. Most of his performing art was influenced from his understanding of the psychology of crowds, and he speaks openly about this in the interview; and he had a conscious philosophy that you need to follow your animal instincts at every moment, and pursue them to the most remote reaches of your mind. What you are confusing as I.M. type is actually philosophy. Again you people show no ability to see into a persons thought patterns, and your first instinct is to identify behavior and give it a label.

[Ashton]

crazedrat, on Oct 25 2008, 09:08 AM, said:

The people I listed, with the exception of Britney Spears and Robert Plant (Plant I think you may of been correct about; I always have thought his input tainted Led Zeppelin), were my role models growing up. I have religiously listened to their music, watched interviews, contemplated what they had to say... for the last 7 or so years. Studying their music has been one of my main hobbies.

That's cool. But I don't think it's a compelling reason that all these people are Gammas, since you may not be. It's just as well for me to say that almost all of these people you've listed I either feel nothing for, or have a negative reaction towards. And I'm not just saying that for the sake of being disagreeable. So who's right?

Quote

I am confident Bob dylan is Fi. I am not sure your criterion for determining subtypes, but at this point there are not enough objective criterion in socionics to argue about subtypes. In this area of socionics, at this point in time, I can only share feelings with you on this matter; as can you, and I say Bob is distinctly different from people like Allie, and that Bob also unfortunately reminds me fo an Ex of mine who was ISFj-Fi. ISFj, though, is a sure bet.

Sure. It's possible that what you're calling Fi-ISFj and what I'm calling Se-ISFj are the same thing. My criteria for differentiating subtypes is largely subjective, and in the absence of any objective measures there isn't really anything to argue about. Though I personally think Dylan and Allie are more similar than you're giving them credit for. A big difference is that Bob isn't the most psychologically healthy person around.

Quote

If you cannot hear Fi in Pauls music then you are deaf.
If somehow you hear Fe then I don't get you, but I'd like you to elaborate.

Can you give me a good example I could listen to? I haven't heard his music, I'm just typing him based on what I know about the man. It's expressions like these, among other factors about him not related to VI, that strike me as brazenly :



IJ temperaments have a characteristically static, flattened affect in their expressions - epecially Pe-IJs like Se-ISFjs. McCartney's expressions are more obviously IP. Comparable to Britney Spears:



Contrast this to real Se-ISFjs:



(Clockwise: Camille Claudel, Bob Dylan, Hunter S. Thompson, Georgia O'Keefe)

Note the straight-lipped, deadpan lack of expressiveness present in all four of these people. You won't find many pictures of them unlike this.

Quote

Paul is the same type as Allie.

Absurd.

Quote

She also can be politically elegant when the need arises.

I haven't seen it.

Quote

But her most powerful function is a specific, situational framework of moral convictions. That is what distinguishes her as a Fi type.

I wouldn't call it "moral" persay - I think connotations of that word provoke too many mischaracterizations of the nature of . But I agree with what you're getting at. And I don't see how Mr. McCartney possesses this.

Quote

Political awareness doesn't presume Fe dominance. Fe as an Id function is also powerful.

It doesn't presume Fe dominance, I agree. I would say it doesn't presume anything about at all. Though how are using the word "political"? As an awareness of situational social group dynamics? Or something else?

Quote

You can see the same type of situational moralism in many of Pauls interviews,

Can you show an example?

Quote

as well as in his impact on the culture as a whole; with the long hair, beatlemania, all you need is love, and the eventual hippie culture.

This is Gamma how? "All you need is love" sounds like something an Alpha would say lol. Not that Gammas are opposed to challenging cultural norms - obviously Thompson and Dylan were anything but conformists. But I don't think Gammas go about it in the manner you're describing.

Quote

As for my subjective impressions; and these are all I can use in arguing subtypes, as I clarified earlier, an Ex girlfriend of mind who was ISFj-Se.. nothing reminds me more of, and brings me back to the place I was in with her, than listening to a few of paul mccartneys works.

I see. Yeah, I can't comment on that other than to say that she may not have been Se-ISFj. But I didn't know the girl myself, so I can only speculate indirectly.

Quote

His duality with Lennon is further testament to his type; the beatles had an undeniable chemistry with one another.
Granted, Lennon is a different subtype than you. If you want to start in on Lennon, I'm ready. I've read his biography and watched a number of interviews.

Okay, I'll start: Why do you think Lennon is Te-ENTj? You can be as general or specific as you'd like, I just want reasonable arguments. I think he's Ti-ENTp, which means the duality holds between him and Fe-ISFp McCartney.

Quote

If you're having elaborate reasons why you think Paul is alpha, then I'd like to hear them, despite me knowing they are rediculous.

Depends on what you consider elaborate. I compare and contrast him to other types I have extensive certainty on and I see that he bears much commonality with other Fe-ISFps in terms of his demeanor, his expressed thoughts, values, and inclinations, etc. Also there's a subjective influence here: I feel intense, indiscernable repulsion towards the man. I don't hate him persay, he just repels me like Conflictors do - it's the sort of repulsion that makes me just want to keep a neutral distance from them. These sorts of subjective impressions I find useful in deciphering intertype relations between myself and another. I find him completely uninteresting, insignificant, and I don't think I would like his outlooks. I also detest the Beatles in general and can't fathom what's so great about them.

Quote

Britney spears symbolizes the worst traits of Gamma quadra.

Nothing about her symbolizes :gamma: in the least, negatively or positively. Vanity, materialism, and promiscuity are not intrinsically related to :gamma: quadra (or any other quadra for that matter).

Quote

Any self respected alpha is detested by her self indulgent, vain art. Mention her name to an INTj and watch the reaction.

I think most self-respecting people are revulsed by her "art," be they :alpha:, :gamma:, :beta:, or :delta:.

Quote

The notion she is ISFp makes no sense. ISFp is not like this. They are conservative.

What does being conservative have to do with being ISFp? Some are, some are not. Some are immaculate prudes, some are flagrant tramps. I doubt this is type-related.

Quote

ESFp-Fi is far the more common form of ESFp.

Probably true.

Quote

ESFp-Se can be hard to identify for people who haven't interacted with one personally. I had trouble with it even; and they are my full dual, until I met one recently. I then became interested in britney spears, and watched a couple of interviews of her. The mannerisms and speech patterns line up, as well as my subjective reaction and sense of potential for dual relations which I get from her in interviews.

I see nothing in common with Britney Spears and Se-ESFps. Compare her to Ashley Olsen, Anna Kournikova, Ann Richards, George Clooney, Craig Ferguson, Kevin Spacey, etc. They're completely dissimilar - and where is the :gamma:- in Spears? Se-ESFps are more composed, serious, and carry themselves with far greater presence than she does.

Quote

The other person on the list it is possible you are right about is the lead singer of The Cure. I have not collected enough information to be 100% certain on him either. Although I am fairly certain of a Te dominance & Fi dual seeking function.

Okay.

Quote

You are also absolutely wrong about Kazu, Jim Morrison, Jack White, & RHCP singer.

They're not :gamma:.

[dolphin]

Ashton, on Oct 30 2008, 07:11 PM, said:

..........Dylan...............Bob....................Bob Dylan...........Dylan

:

[Steve]

Ashton, on Oct 30 2008, 11:32 PM, said:

I think it comes down to rationality/irrationality (in the Jungian sense). Rational subtypes (Je-EXXj, Ji-IXXj, Je-IXXp, Ji-EXXp) have a more structured cognition, where mental events are subordinated to the reasoning judgment and more or less understood in an organized fashion from the viewpoint of the individual's psyche. Their epistemological outlooks tend to be more objectively-based. Irrational subtypes (Pe-EXXp, Pi-IXXp, Pe-IXXj, Pi-EXXj) have a more chaotic cognition, where mental events are subordinated to the incidental perception and more or less "just happen" spontaneously according to the individual's psyche without much emphasis placed on making coherent rational sense of them. Their epistemological outlooks tend to be more subjectively-based.

The behavioral stereotypes of so-called "P" types and so-called "J" types are relevant here too I believe, which temperament alone inaccurately categorizes. I find Irrational subtypes tending to be more "P": impulsive, spontaneous, whimsical, etc. While rational subtypes tend to be more "J": planned, methodical, systematic, etc.

Something else seems to be true but I don't know if this will make sense since I'm still thinking of how to phrase it. In irrational subtypes, the focus of awareness seems to be more temporally short-range and honed for dealing with the more exigent circumstances of the moment as they emerge - what is more immediate is seen with greater clarity and detailed shading, but this acuity rapidly falls off as one projects farther outwards in time or circumstance. In rational subtypes, the focus of awareness seems to be more temporally long-range and honed for dealing with stabilizing circumstances and rendering order over time - attention is more spread out across time which gives it greater breadth of focus at the expense of the more particular clarity of focus seen in Irrationals.

It's also interesting to see the difference between Jx Xxxps and Jx XxxJs, or between Px Xxxps and Px XxxJs (temperament on top of subtype)

For example, I believe the general differences you described between the subtypes are like the different languages and rapports the subtypes have. However when you consider temperament on top of that, you notice a distinct difference between J sub Ps and J sub Js. Both have the same rapport, but approach it differently with a different energy focus.

Additionally, what you mentioned about P subs focusing attention more short range while J subs spreading out resembles the difference between something like sx/sp and so/sp.

[Ashton]

glamourama, on Jan 6 2009, 10:55 AM, said:

good one machintruc, they do look Gamma. I've heard their music before and I didn't totally dislike it, but I was pretty put off by its lack of immediate emotionality; yes, it sounded "cold." But there's something about the flavor of their music that's attractive. Hard to put my finger on it.

EDIT: just listened to some of Front 242's stuff on Youtube. I'm not good at describing music, but I'll give it a shot... the music sounds "cold" because the voices and beats are rather flat and dry; more emotionally expressive music is not so "monotone" as theirs is. their videos put a lot of focus on movements () and striking imagery ().

so they might form an entire quadrable (SEE, ESI, ILI, LIE)?

I'm not so sure they form a Gamma quadrable, or that they are a "Gamma band." They could have some Gamma influences - guy 2nd from left might be an ENTj for instance. But I can't say the types of any of them for sure without adequate pictures/videos. They don't look like they're all from the same quadra to me though.

Personally I find their music kind of boring and repetitive, but maybe it's just the particular genre. Not really into electro-industrial much.

I like the beats/rhythm of this though:

Quote

when you have a quadrable together, it can be tough to tell exactly who's which type.

Yeah.

Quote

A Beta group example would be Atari Teenage Riot, whose members might've easily been LSI, EIE, IEI, and SLE.

ATR seems very Beta to me. I agree with this.

[hoodrat]

I think that the girls from ladytron are Gamma..... Like, they both live together and are super homies and shit. (left -> right) ESI and ILI maybe?

[crazedrat]

Now I'm thinking these:
Paul is SEI
Britney spears is SEI (yeah.. was way wrong about her)
Robert Smith is SEI-Fe
John Lennon is ENTp-Ti
Jimmy Page is ISTj-Ti
Jim Morrison is ENTj-Ni
Robert Plant: ESI-Fi
Others: Same